| Eurasier - a pure-bred dog - a family dog |
Forum of the Zuchtgemeinschaft for Eurasier e.V.
- A selection of contributions from the forum members -
Subject: Discussion about coat colour: white and white patches
Taken from the FCI-Standard No. 291 for Eurasiers, dated 16 June 1999 / GB:
"All colours and colour combinations are permitted with the exception of pure white, white patches or liver colour".
An international Eurasier friend recently asked me: "We do of course understand that white or white patches are not allowed but what is the position concerning white on the feet, legs or perhaps chest?" I answered this question and explained how this is handled in the ZG, shortly afterwards the ZG installed a forum and a hot debate entailed regarding this subject, mostly due to members of a group called IGfE in Germany.
For your information, so that you can fully understand the background of some postings: The IGfE is not organized in the German Kennel Club VDH/FCI and has no connection to the three German Eurasier Clubs in the VDH, which are ZG, EKW or KZG.
The debate on the subject of white, white patches, pintos started when these members of the IGfE were told that one of their dogs used for breeding would have to be considered "not acceptable for breeding" according to the FCI standard, but they claim the dog is black with a white marking…
During the discussion, the breed specialists and breed inspectors from the ZG (VDH/FCI) wrote quite a few interesting articles and I therefore asked for permission to translate the most interesting ones from the ZG for you, the English speaking Eurasier friends.
Please feel free to contribute, by writing to me: EllenConzelmann@web.de If you write to me in reference to any subject in the forum, please inform me whether your article may be published in this open forum, if I may mention your name or if you would rather remain anonymous and also if I may translate your contribution into German?
Ellen Conzelmann (Member and English correspondent of the ZG)
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Translation of the original postings:
Excerpt from posting: Ulla Robering (ZG), Saturday, 6 March 2004, (only an excerpt ...)
... When is a Eurasier considered a Eurasier or a cross, respectively a Eurasier from the F1 generation of an original mating (and in that case it is interesting to know from which mating). In all animals such crossings are done to reach a new aim in breeding (we breed Iceland horses where this is a well-known subject).
This discussion can only deal with how you can prove without doubt that a dog has been bred from which parents and from which generations prior to that (including the genetic data that goes with it).
Colour fault ... this occurs in all clubs (and goes to show what genetics means in breeding) and the colour does not hurt the dog nor does it hinder it. But it is a scientifically proven fact that the colour gene is linked with "behavioural genes". And that is where it becomes interesting for breeding.
The colour fault or - as it is called in Eurasier breeding - white patches, is exempt from breeding. A white patched Eurasier ... (called black with a white mark in another posting ...) must receive the remark "not acceptable for breeding".
Because I know how much knowledge is necessary for breeding, I regard buying a Eurasier from one of the officially recognized clubs much safer. Apart from that, a single breeder will just not be able to gather the amount of knowledge carried together in the clubs through many breeders, a breeding board, data bases and their ongoing training and lectures. Also, a single breeder will never have the population needed to breed Eurasiers accordingly regarding appearance, character and health.
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Posting: Annemarie, Tuesday, 9 March, 2004
Dear readers,
it is tedious to count the white hairs a Eurasier might have, but every single one is a sign that this Eurasier carries white and could potentially lead to white patches. But please do not forget: You must check and assess the hair of a puppy, the newly born! puppy!!!
If you see a grown Eurasier that might look "white patched" to you, I would suggest you try to talk to the breeder and/or look at a photo of this Eurasier when he was newly born.
People (in Germany) who are not in the German Kennel Club VDH and think they do not need to adhere to the standard, can breed as they like, but please discuss this subject with breeders of Munsterlanders, collies and other breeds who, due to their colour standard, move along the tiny border line between pinto, white patches and, for example, correctly set spots. These experienced breeders clearly see a connection between white patches and behavioural problems (timidity) (and this can also be read in publications).
The ZG decided that they want to minimize this risk and rather turn their attention to other points in breeding, especially as the standard clearly says that white in any form is not permitted. But, Eurasiers with a proportion of white do show up in the ZG here and there. In the first generation, these are just as good as other Eurasiers, and normally have no problems in behaviour; but without a really pressing reason one should not breed them. The risk can easily be minimized if there are plenty of other Eurasiers for breeding.
a.
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Posting: Birgit Ahmann (ZG) Tuesday, 9 March, 2004
Hello, dear interested readers in the forum,
I would like to contribute to the problem of "white inheritance" and agree with what Annemarie wrote above stating that each single white hair in a Eurasier is a sign for (more or less) white inheritance.
This is one of the reasons why I, being a breed inspector of the ZG, am expected to make a first inspection of the puppies within their first ten days after birth.
I take a lot of time to assess each single puppy and, if I find traces of white (I admit this does not happen often), I describe the white patch exactly in its size, form, etc. Regarding this, the forms I must fill out during the first inspection are very detailed and a puppy with any traces of white in unsymmetrical form (no matter how large) must receive the remark "not acceptable for breeding".
Also, when the puppies are eight weeks old, a final inspection of the litter follows and the forms that have to be filled in then will include notes about the first inspection, and must be signed by the breeder and the breed inspector. A copy of these forms and notes will be given to each buyer of a puppy.
All my breed inspector colleagues and the breeding board act accordingly and with the same correctness.
Kind regards, Birgit Ahmann (ZG)
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Posting: Alfred Müller (ZG), Tuesday, 9 March, 2004
I can only speak for the ZG and their attitude towards this:
Signs of white are already little white hairs on the paws, or white spots - be they ever so small - and similar, also tiny traces of white that fade away during the first few days after birth. These are all prephases to forming a pinto. If you mate two animals with such traces of white, you can get real pintos - we have living proof. This is why we, in the ZG, do not breed white carriers, or only in very exceptional cases and only with a very good reason. That is how we handle it.
Be careful: white and a very pale colour are two different things, you must really look very closely to differ between white and a very pale colour. In order to assess a dog, you must see the dog live. A photo on a screen is not sufficient to do this. And this applies even more to the assessment of any traces of white.
Alfred Müller (ZG)
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Posting Annemarie Thursday, 11 March 2004.
Hello everybody,
I am not so much interested in the word "pinto"! It is also not a question of the umbrella organizations!!! Genetisists confirm that there is a correlation between - I will intentionally give it another name - white patchiness in dogs that do not have pure white as their basic colour, and behaviour, here linkages of genes occur. Fortunately only very rarely in the first generation. But must we Eurasier people really invent the wheel from scratch again and experiment on how many generations of Eurasiers it would take until "white patches" also means timid??
We have to keep this apart from pure white breeds such as herding dogs, Samoyeds, etc.
Greetings, a.
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Posting: Elke Schäfer (ZG), Sunday, 14 March, 2004
Hello Mr Bucher,
I do think there are important reasons to exclude pintos from breeding: Lack of pigment leads to white or pinto (white as such is not a colour, but the lack of pigment!). Pigmentation often begins after birth. True albinos, they lack pigment also on their nose and the eyes, are very seldom among dogs.
The gene for "wild-colouring" - speaking of Eurasiers, they are called "black and tan" - is recessive. White patches are also recessive - which is why this is a problem in breeding! The basic colour is inherited independently of this.
Pintos (white patches) are a sign for domestic animals. In some dog breeds, pintos never appear, such as Dobermans, Rottweilers, German and Belgian Shepherd Dogs, Retrievers, Schnauzers and - of special importance to us - Chow Chows.
The first signs for pintos can be seen in a little spot of white on the chest, white toes and/or a white tip of the tail. In different breeds you can study further stages of pintos up to an extreme stage, in which only a tiny bit of colour on the tail or the head shows the basic colour. And when these tiny bits of colour then disappear, the dog appears to be pure white (such as Dogo Argentinos or Bullterriers).
Pintos or white patches already develop in the embryo. Normally, pigment cells migrate from a certain cell group to their destination later on so that the whole dog is covered with pigment at birth - this applies to the pure coloured dog. In a pinto or white patched dog this migration does not take place or only to a small extent, resulting in an extremely white patched dog / pinto. If this migration takes place slowly, then it results in "plate" or "mantle" patching.
Because the migration of pigment cells takes place simultaneously with nerve cells, some extreme pintos can suffer from deafness. This is why the phenomenon of white inheritance must be considered in breeding. The link between lack of pigment and anomalies of the sense organs and the central nerve system in humans and animals is not seldom (see Prof. Wegner: Kleine Kynologie). So it does make sense to exclude pintos from breeding.
Already Charlotte Baldamus emphasized that the question of pigment must be considered in breeding. Good pigment should always be judged positively. Presumably there were no problems with white before the Samoyed was crossed in.
Best regards, E. Schäfer (ZG)
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Excerpt from posting: Elke, Tuesday, March 16, 2004:
Elke, from the IGfE, asked "… there was once the idea to let a pack of Eurasiers with all sorts of colours (including white and pinto) live "fully on their own" in a huge area ..."
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Posting: Alfred Müller (ZG), Tuesday, 16 March, 2004
Hello Elke,
I do not know who would come up with such absurd ideas, which make no sense at all.
Breeders of genuine Eurasiers, and those are the Eurasiers that are building up from the breeding lines in the 60ies (I am writing "building up" and not "built up", because 40 years of breeding work have been invested in them and the developing process is still going on), have agreed on this very early, and found it proved through research later on: The colour white is not permitted in the Eurasier. Amen.
Since then we have enough to do trying to avoid white. Nobody would come up with the idea to plan a study like the one you mentioned. Why should they? There was once another idea: Dr. Schmidt (ZG), who stood in correspondence with Dr. Dorit Feddersen-Petersen and Eberhard Trumler, wanted to observe a complete Eurasier family in a free area and then compare these findings with wolves. But this was never done, for obvious reasons:
No owner would give away his Eurasier for such a plan, and also, the Eurasier needs constant contact to his humans, but in this plan the Eurasier would have to be abandoned. The whole idea was quickly dismissed. There are many other ways to find out about the Eurasier's closeness to the wolf.
By the way, the colour white was never a question in this context, the question about white has been clear for at least 25 years. Apart from that, colour never played a role as a criteria for selection in breeding. The only exception to this, is white.
Once again, so that everybody knows what white means in the ZG: It begins with three hairs on the paw and/or a little tiny spot the size of a pin-needle head on the throat!
Best regards, Alfred Müller (ZG)
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Excerpt from lengthy posting: Johann Bucher, Tuesday, March 16, 2004
Hello, Mr. Müller,
if I understood you correctly nature is NOT a good teacher. I will really have to think about that. …
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Posting: Alfred Müller (ZG), Tuesday, March 16, 2004
Hello to all,
did we misunderstand each other? I am speaking of breeding with an aim, genuine Eurasier breeding. Experiments with free running dogs, just to see who will favour whom and why and the consequences … I might find that interesting, but what should I do with the results in connection with breeding Eurasiers? Should I alter my aim in breeding because my red Benja might love a tricolored pinto - recently she preferred a long-eared long-legged Dachshound - Oh, come on! Your question in this connection as to whether nature would be a good teacher seems to me to be very academic. And the opinion of my female Eurasier interests me as much as, let's see, if a bicycle falls down in London. Well, okay, you could make a research study to find out whether bicycles fall down in a different way in London than in Berlin, Hamburg or Kirrlach. What a phenomic doctorate study! Unfortunately, nobody needs it.
I am interested in finding out how I can GET RID OF white. You know, breed standard, WHITE IS OUT, not wanted, no matter how interesting experiments may be. If you should find new results that make it possible to repress white WITHOUT having to exclude the carriers from breeding, please let me know.
By the way, this is also worth knowing: The first and most important reason to exclude the colour white was way back in 1979/1973, to avoid that Eurasiers would be mistaken for Samoyeds. * smile *. Following consequences of growing lighter (!) and lack of pigment (!) were detected later on and were also considered in breeding. Influences on the character of Eurasiers through white patchiness are not known, but suggest themselves (the few pintos we have are great Eurasiers, which says nothing in this respect, as the big bang would be expected a few generations further away). It is sufficient to study comparable breeds and step on the brakes to limit the expansion of white faults. Here we must really be aware. There are many publications on this field, new and old, and it is not necessary to invent the wheel again from scratch. And, mean while, we also have our own and reliable experiences in connection with white faults. Certainly, there will always be new findings in research, we are open to these.
I would like to emphasize that colour experiments, even with free living dogs, are not forbidden, but please, please do not call such products "Eurasiers".
Alfred Müller (ZG)
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Elke kept on asking about pintos
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Posting: Alfred Müller (ZG), Thursday, 18 March, 2004
Hello Elke,
in that case you should ask a geneticist. This is not my subject. We are trying to avoid pintos, not to breed them.
We do not have a problem with pintos or white patches in the ZG - 4 real pintos in the last 20 years, a number you can keep in view, all are still alive and the last three are all from one litter and are now 5 years old. Caused through white carriers, the ones with the tiny white spots, and those carriers are also of a manageable size. Mean while we know our carriers. What is still hidden recessively is, of course, (not) yet known.
That is why I would not advise you to experiment with pintos. It is much more effective to exclude those from breeding. Continuous breeding with pintos also runs the danger of accumulating undesired genes and/or actually breeding for the feared side effects (see the posting of Elke Schäfer, ZG). I would then rather stop breeding - I presume we are still talking of breeding Eurasiers and not just experimenting with colour.
Alfred Müller (ZG)
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Posting: Edith Marahrens (ZG), Friday, 19 March, 2004
Hello Elke, hello Mr Bucher,
are you discussing pintos and white patches just to keep the discussion going or are you willing to take notice why we do not want to breed such specimen?
We do not think we discovered something unique and new, but we can learn from our experiences and we do not have to repeat doing things that have already been proven. There really are more important things in connection with breeding.
What happens when you mate a white patched specimen with another white patched specimen? Those clubs who allow these colours in their standard can tell you much better. It is not a question what would be, if, but meanwhile the outcome can be reliably predicted.
Apart from that, Elke Schäfer (ZG) already informed you with a few excerpts taken from a lecture I held during the meeting of our breeding board on March 14th, which answers all these questions. The statements I made in that lecture stem in one part from reputable scientists, and also from my own experience. For years I have been breeding budgerigars. I dreamed of creating a lilac/white pearled pinto with ideal markings, which means symmetrical white markings on both wings. I would like to suggest you take that path, because that way you get much quicker results and insights about colour shades. You can even win cups for special colour shades at exhibitions (and it does not show too much, if a budgerigar is a little "cuckoo"). Of course everybody has to decide for themselves if they can breed these little birds with a good conscience. You need to have special knowledge about breeding budgerigars, and you need to get legal permission through the administrative authorities, the birds need to have rings, and there are rules and regulations for the qualitative good care and health of these birds, too.
Concerning the vitality of white patched specimen or pintos, this surely applies to the first generation, but the moment you mate one such specimen with another, it is destroyed and you will not get all colours again. The gene for white patching is dominant, and the animals will be small and rather sensitive. Maybe you will follow my advice and will collect your own experiences, then you will understand what this discussion is about.
Many greetings,
E. Marahrens
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Johann Bucher asked Edith Marahrens to answer a hypothetical question:
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Posting: Edith Marahrens (ZG), Friday, March 19, 2004
Hello Mr Bucher,
I will answer your hypothetical question whether the IFEZ would one day agree on no longer excluding white carriers from their breeding programme. IFEZ = International Federation for Eurasier Breeding - founded 1996 - a garantee for serious and sound breeding work. This Federation unites active and dedicated Eurasier Clubs in Germany and other countries, who all feel dedicated to safeguard the health and character of Eurasiers. That already says everything.
Surely we will not be able to exclude all those Eurasiers that carry the gene for white recessively. That is not our aim. It would narrow the gene pool far too much. But we can take care not to mate two dogs who have this gene among their forefathers.
It can also not be prevented that a pinto or white Eurasier might show up every now and then. But we do not need to use these Eurasiers for breeding. A future owner receives notice of this fact before he takes over this puppy.
Our breed is still young and we are in the lucky position that our database containing detailed information reaches back to the origins of the breed, many other breed clubs would be happy if they could say the same. Why should we take any risk?
Please just consider the film with Dalmatians. This kind of advertising did a lot of harm to Dalmatians. Must it first come to blindness and deafness, only because unethical breeders p r o d u c e large numbers of puppies to fulfill a demand instead of do good breeding?
Breeding pintos is a science in itself and it must always be improved by including pure coloured animals from time to time. In addition, it is combined with a loss of pigment, which means a lighter or pink nose, lighter nails and lighter eyes. All this is considered a fault in Eurasiers. A Standard and other regulations are not changed according to one's own whimsical.
If I cannot reach my aim, then I would consult a geneticist. Does this answer your question?
Regards,
E. Marahrens
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Posting Ellen Conzelmann, August 17, 2006
The website "Genetics of Coat Color in Dogs" by Professor Sheila M. Schmutz, Ph.D., College for Agriculture, University of Saskatchewan, offers many interesting, scientific articles and results, also about the coat colour "white" and "white spotting".